Dick Heckstall-Smith Interview #1

Interview conducted by Ivan Beavis during autumn, 1991. First published in GRAMBO, issue 20

IB:	In your book, The Safest Place In The World, you describe your very first awareness of Graham as, "a silent humble figure with a plastic alto who was always on the outskirts of the Nucleus scene, never ever part of it". What did you notice about him that set him apart from the rest of the scene at the club?	Graham Bond
DH-S:	Well, the thing about him was that you didn't notice him. He made like he had seen me before but I couldn't remember it. I was sorting out where had I seen him and what was he talking about when he was going on about how I was playing better and even better and inspiring him etc. Later it sort of crawled back into my mind that I had seen him and that he had been one of these sort of slightly "out-of-it" kind of people.
IB:	"Out-of-it"? Would you care to elaborate?
DH-S:	At these blowing scenes, there's always people around that nobody knows who they are. They don't play the greatest, they don't come on and really do the thing. Everybody just turns their backs on them and sort of assumes them out of existence. There's always a few sad characters on the outskirts who basically can't make it and in those days Graham was one of them. It's hard to imagine but true.
IB:	Did you ever see the Don Rendell Quintet perform when Graham was a member?
DH-S:	As a matter of fact I did, yes - but I don't remember it! What happened was I went around to Willie Garnett some time ago to get my saxophone fixed. I walk in the door and Willie says, "Come in here and have a listen to this" and he puts on a tape. And there's a tenor solo coming up and it's very good but I don't know who it is - I just don't have a clue. Willie is grinning and sparkling away in the corner so it eventually dawned on me that given the amount of joking about going on, there's only one person that it could be. It turns out that it's me in 1962 doing a broadcast with the Don Rendell Quintet - the Roarin' quintet. Don Graham, me, Johnny Burch - I don't know who else. Don had a series of air shots and got the bread to employ odd chosen guests - and I'm the odd chosen guest this night.

IB:	After leaving Don Rendell's quintet, Bond joined Blues Incorporated. Why wasn't he allowed to play the organ with this group?
DH-S:	Alexis wanted a horn section with Graham playing the alto. That was why he suggested that Graham should play organ in a separate part of the gig. That suited Graham alright.
IB:	What about this never-released recording that you mentioned in your book?
DH-S:	It was a recording of Blues Incorporated in its absolutely perfect form. That was with Ginger, Jack, Cyril, Alexis, Johnny Parker and me. I think it had four tracks and I think it was a demo done for Decca. To my mind, the best ever recording of Blues Incorporated.
IB:	So do you think that this demo still exists somewhere in Decca´s vaults?
DH-S:	I´ve tried to get Decca to find it but they says, "Oh no - number one, we've destroyed the acetates and number two, we've probably wiped the tapes". But nobody is absolutely certain about it.
IB:	Ginger, Jack and Graham as well as yourself also played in the Johnny Burch Octet which co-existed with the Blues Incorporated. How would you describe the music produced by the octet?
DH-S:	Well, it was jazz. Stylistically it was, what you might call, grounded in bebop approach changes. It was very driving music. I suppose you can call it hard bop in a way but I mean, it wasn't like anything that we know of as hard bop.

Johnny Burch Octet-John Burch, Jack Bruce, Ginger Baker, Mike Falana, John Mumford, Graham, Dick Heckstall-Smith, Miff Moule (Photographer unknown, from Warner Bros. album "Alternatives" WB 1873

IB:	After John McLaughlin left the Graham Bond Quartet and you joined, the name of the band changed. Who's idea was it to call it the Graham Bond Organisation?
DH-S:	I think it was mine, as far as I know - but it might have been the result of a mutual brainstorming session.
IB:	*Did the Graham Bond Organisation appear on Ready Steady Go!* ?**
DH-S:	I think so yeah. I don't have the tape but I have a definite recollection that there is indeed a tape of Ready Steady Go! with the Graham Bond Organisation on it. One of the featured highlights of the tape is myself walking in front of the camera unaware that I am in front of the camera! Also I'm told that there's a horrible, film called Gonks Go Beat that features the band. Apparently I do an impressive debut as an actor!



*Dick Heckstall-Smith in a still from the Gonks Go Beat* movie.**

IB:	Do you recall anything about Ernest Ranglin?
DH-S:	I remember him coming along and blowing. He was terrific He was a wonderful guitar player, a real nice sweetie too. There was talk of asking him to join. But then it was decided it would change the sound too much.
IB:	Do you know whatever happened to Ernest?
DH-S:	No, I don´t but it would be a good idea if could be found again. I think his playing would find some niches right now.
IB:	Do you know who wrote "Waltz For A Pig"?
DH-S:	Ginger
IB:	Do you remember anything else about it?
DH-S:	I've got a feeling that Ginger came into a deal with Robert Stigwood. I think that was one way that Ginger got enough bread to leave and start setting up something or other.
IB:	What did you think of Graham's singing?
DH-S:	Well, his actual voice quality wasn't particularly good but I loved the way he used it, I always did. You could say the same thing about Sonny Boy Wiliamson.
IB:	Who came up with the repetitive riff that is a feature of both John Mayall's "Open Up A New Door" and "Debut" by Colosseum?
DH-S:	"Da-da-da-da-da/da/dat/da/da/da". Me!
IB:	Chris Farlowe eventually joined to become lead vocalist of Colosseum but Paul Williams was also suggested for the job.
DH-S:	There was talk of that at one time. I would have liked that, from the soul point of view. But I think it was felt that he might not be able to physically stand the pace of touring. It is a pretty rigorous business, touring.

IB:	Were there other candidates?	Chris Farlowe
DH-S:	Yes, there was a guy who who did actually sing pretty good. I can't remember his name, but we took him on a short Danish tour.
IB:	You once said in an article that Farlowe was controversial. What did you mean by that?
DH-S:	What I meant was that..... Chris´ public image had always been not so much that of a blues singer or a jazz singer but that of a soul singer. For a time, it surprised quite a lot of the audience that we should have, to be frank, a soul singer fronting a sort of progressive jazz-rock unit. The thing was that Farlowe's vocal proficiency is unique in the world. I don't think that there is anybody who can do what he can do. It's astounding! And it'll be like that until the day he dies and after that , there won't be anymore.
IB:	Were the Dick Heckstall-Smith Band and Manchild one and the same group?
DH-S:	Yes, affirmative.
IB:	And now for the inevitable reunion questions. What do you think about Colosseum reuniting?
DH-S:	It´s a remote possibility. It depends on the band as a group of people, accepting enough new material to make it a going proposition. I think that in principle, everybody would like to do it if the material was something that we really, really wanted to do.